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Google to penalise the search results for pirate sites - right or wrong?


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Poll: Google to penalise the search results for pirate sites - right or wrong? (14 member(s) have cast votes)

Google to penalise the search results for pirate sites - right or wrong?

  1. Yes, this is right, and long overdue (5 votes [35.71%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.71%

  2. Yes, it's right but I think this will allow Google to manipulate the searches for other things too (3 votes [21.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.43%

  3. No, I don't think Google should be doing this as it messes with the natural search (3 votes [21.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.43%

  4. Personally, I don't care one way or another!! (1 votes [7.14%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

  5. Other (please specify in your reply) (2 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

Vote

#61
FutureShock

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Hey, Bala...I don't think you are as far apart with marko as you think on this. marko's interest in the topic is a pretty good bit different than yours, which seems to be more of a general concern over corruption. marko, while he may be concerned with that too on his own time, is primarily I believe concerned with how Google's (and others on the net) decisions affect FreewareBB.

I will say one thing on one of your concerns. I don't think drug runners out of necessity have to use banks in London, New York, and Tokyo. Does the money pass through those banks?...eventually probably, but most of the time I'm pretty sure it's come to them from another bank. The main thing here is, though...these issues are miles apart from each other. They aren't in any way connected so to speak.

The worst part of that is that bringing up drug trafficking here could only frustrate you as you aren't likely to find any takers for an informed discussion or a debate. Not that it's wrong to be concerned...by all means not. Personally, I think drugs could be as harmless as candy if they were marketed correctly in super teeny small amounts (like a 5 hr. pick up drink, etc.). Again that debate won't and shouldn't happen here. I'll just say...nobody wants to go to jail and nobody wants to be strung out on drugs...

I think I understand what you meant about marko and Jim being wrong in that perhaps they don't seem as concerned as you about the depths of corruption, but I think their view on this matter is very calculated, and I am of the impression that they are secure in their beliefs about the future...for FWBB and everything else. That's enough for me to know that there isn't that big of a problem...and that it's being handled. Gotta say, Bala, you've been right on the spot with some video and links that contained some good info. Still, I think marko and Jim's approach to the problems they see are appropriate....a calculated look at the issue that hopefully leads to improvement. In this case, I believe that will happen in large part because of those who "take the high road"...

Could we be judging a bit the architecture of a skyscraper with an electron microscope here Bala? :pardon:

#62
Guest_James (Jim) Hillier_*

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I'm not quite sure what has happened here. I'm equally unsure of your exact stance on this matter Bala, I must admit to not fully comprehending some of your always insightful yet often cryptic comments. Maybe I'm just too dumb.

Seems to me that everyone here is pretty much heading in the same direction, taking slightly different paths perhaps. So what's to disagree with?

As for me taking the "high road", again I'm not quite sure what that means... did you mean taking the "moral high ground"? If so, I must admit, it's something I've never been accused of previously. I'm generally considered a bit of rogue, a rebel, with a tendency to play devil's advocate. I never automatically bow to popular opinion and my beliefs are certainly not predicated on any perception of moral superiority. If it means that I am inherently in favor of the doctrines supporting freedom and justice, then yes, I stand guilty as charged.

It's a shame such a good, open discussion should end up spoiled by such arbitrary statements as ... you are wrong, I am right. A conciliatory approach will always garner more credence and respect than a dogmatic one.

#63
FutureShock

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Jim, insightful comments as always.

For my part, "taking the high road" means as you say, "supporting freedom and liberty" in the context of this discussion. On the finer points, perhaps you and marko even don't see things exactly the same way sometimes, but I would say that you are both on the high ground when it comes to the most important issues of the rights of good people who work hard and put in an honest days work. In this case that would be the honest and trustworthy site owners and managers.

Bala...I can tell you didn't mean any harm, etc. Seemed to me like you have uncovered alot of messy details that maybe aren't exactly tried in the furnace so to speak, and perhaps you are just wrestling with the implications of all you have found. There have sure been times when I was worried to the core over things I read on the internet. However, the stances of people like marko and Jim reassure me that there isn't going to be a meltdown, as far as this thread goes, at Google, but, in the big picture, in big business either. Might seem like we're having one now with the bad economy or whatever and with all this puzzling information you turn up...important parts of it substantiable I might add..., but I don't see it that way.

I think we're in the perfect storm of our day. For sure, this is no great depression, however. High tech leadership is being tested just like the banks were back in the 30s. Well, high tech is so far gone important that I think the spill over of this period of time has gone into almost everything. The craziness at the banks...I attribute all that to what's happening in the tech sector. It just reaches into everything.

Thank goodness for guys like marko and Jim. Pretty many good guys out there keeping watch over things. That keeps me going. As nasty as things may seem (and it's good to know what's happening), when it's all over it will happen in some other industry probably. Just gotta say...I wish the leaders of the top tech players, especially net players, had a venue for talking to each other more...and the will to work through the common issues. There's so much out there, that sometimes I have a hard time believing anyone will really fully get to piracy in the really short term (like 2 years). 2 years is probably a good estimate for the first time the U.S. government will even really tear into the issue. Just a guess and maybe hopeful thinking at that, but I think that might be as soon as they could do it here. So for me it's the PC and high tech sectors that need the most help. Lots of changes still to come and a shortage of cooperation to speak of I would say....

#64
Claw

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I think everyone is just alittle passionate about what they feel is right Jim. I, like you have always and will always be a rebel. Always do opposite of what I'm told, lol.
Bala is a very good guy, and marko is equally as good and passionate on his beliefs. It all seems like a heat of the moment thing, but in a way,,, isn't that what a debate supposed to be ??
We know Bala didn't mean anything to be taken the wrong way when he used the word "wrong", it's just that heat of the moment reaction. In my opinion, and again I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of place, but this debate may have reached it limit.
Trust me,, I'm just trying to help.

#65
Guest_James (Jim) Hillier_*

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You are correct of course FS, Marko and I do not always see eye to eye. In fact we often have opposing viewpoints. But, we do discuss our differences cogently and with the utmost respect for each others opinions.

Mind you, Marko always wins out in the end... he is the boss after all. LOL. Just kidding, Marko is actually always open and flexible, very willing to listen to the 'other side'.

The almighty dollar is a massive spoiler; it has been so in many areas, organized sport being just one notable example. Now, the same could be said of the internet, where massive money making opportunities incite unscrupulous people to use and abuse the global facility to further their own ends.

They say "power tends to corrupt"... the same could be said of the almighty dollar.

#66
Guest_James (Jim) Hillier_*

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I agree Claw. I was actually going to close down this topic myself but then I thought that decision might be best left to Marko.

Marko will be up and about in a few hours at which time he will no doubt review the situation.

#67
Bala7

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Every time I attempt to exit this thread I get sucked back in. I'll try one more time. Marko, has not answered my principle objection.
a} Piracy takes place almost exclusively for personal profit. yes of no ? No long winded posts, yes or no ?
Exclude for the moment deranged individuals whose sole purpose in life is to infect a machine.

If the answer is no than end of story, we disagree, if yes...
b} profits are generated by advertising servers around the 'net > yes or no ?

Google is a point of contention here so I'll use the largest search engine on Earth; baidu.com
Baidu claims 1.5 billion users each and every day. China and most of Asia uses Baidu.

if piracy profits are generated by advertising then who or what systems are in place to present ads to downloaders?
c) there must be some metrics in place perhaps datamining by Baidu analytics to feed browsers advertisements.

d) kill the ads and piracy collapses without profit motivation. yes or no ?

______________________________________

FutureShock, you may have missed my point. Kim dot com is a little insignificant petty thief comparing total piracy. The little guy, kim dot com will get punished, but Baidu.com (the big guy) analytics will generate multi-millions in profits without reprisals. Navigate to Baidu.com, take note of the prominently displayed MP3 search. The largest search engine on Earth promotes piracy on their main page!

FS, my drug laundering analogy was to illustrates one point, the big guys rarely get punished. Simply search "wachovia bank + drug laundering" 330 Billion --> once again 300+ Billion not millions in drug money laundered and not even a small fine was levied by the US Govt. Once again, the big guys are not punished.

Marko would call me conspiracy theorist, I call it what it is, officially sanctioned corruption.

______________________________________

yourself the self-appointed voice of righteousness

forgive me, I was brought up in Western culture whose laws were inspired by the Judeo-Christian 10 commandments.
Commandment number 8 "You shall not steal." This commandant suggestion applies to bigwigs as well as little...

Perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned, we should re-write the Magna Carta and the US Constitution to indemnify bigshots.
Those who would surrender liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security. ~ Benjamin Franklin

#68
FutureShock

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Hey, Bala...

I'll give a crack at part A (which was addressed to marko), because I think it has some bearing on part B. Just my experience, but a thing like piracy could be in a twisted way the result of over generosity. Also, it could just be part of the game for some businesses. In that case, perhaps a business actually arranges for giveaways that it claims are by someone else and illegal, believing that noone will get hurt. Just saying its possible.

In every case, the motives of the individual have to be weighed when it comes to their actions. Even a pirate can do the right thing. However, governments like the U.S. government and especially I think the British government hate piracy. It goes way back, especially with the British. Americans have actually worked with pirates. if you read up on Andrew Jackson, you'll see that he recruited a bunch of them to help defend New Orleans in 1815. Against who? Well, it was the British, and that's another story. The U.S. and U.K. are pretty good friends and in some ways competitors these days, so that's good. But I'm sure Lafitte's decision to help Jackson carries some lingering weight with rulers in the U.K. as reason to despise them.

In spite of all of this, and those aren't the only two governments that don't like piracy, there is still a problem. Blame advertising, but all I am saying is throw it in there with all the other contributing factors. There are almost too many to list I think, but I guess I would start with the music and movies industries themselves. As I mentioned, I think if they really cared, they could get it done to stop it pretty quickly. First they have to convince governments that they have anything worth stealing, otherwise it's not piracy at all. To do that, they, I believe, will have to show that they value their own work by taking measures to protect it.

What does that have to do with the PC industry and Google? Well, in our times, the PC and net industry is taking its cues from Hollywood on this issue. Why? I think mostly because they both have this issue in common...piracy of electronic files I wish I didn't have to say this, but I think there is a small amount of lust in the alliance for the PC industry, especially from Microsoft. To their own loss, I think they started to like being in the cauldron with Hollywood. Honestly, it wouldn't have been a big deal for them to like it, if they had been putting out serious programs. Well, so much of the content on the net is driven by Microsoft. I seriously think MS likes all the piracy to a certain extent. For an absolute certainty, it makes sense to watch Google in all this. And noone would know better than marko why. Jim's in the right place about it, too. It's about the little guy and the guys who compete on the net honestly.

Anyway, because of the net and its power, there have developed some very strange situations, especially given the strange nature of Hollywood dealings in the first place. And some of these Hollywood types are cold blooded ax murderers basically. With the PC industry right in the middle of this struggle, it pays to watch what's going on. For that reason, I appreciate the video about Kim.com and some of the links you have brought into this discussion (some others too). Thanks for that...really.

Bottom line, piracy is about more than just money and ad revenues. There are grudges and very deep set opinions here. Watch a Pirates baseball game or a Raiders football game and think about what a pirate is like really or watch the movie Treasure Island. Man is that a great story. Well, in the final analysis old fashioned 7 seas piracy is still alive and well. No joke, it's not any different than it's ever been no matter how it looks. They're hard to beat...and they don't care about anything...anything...

As for part B...read part A. I blame Microsoft for loving the attention of being in the stew with Hollywood. I doubt Kim.com would be in jail if MS put big business first like they should have been all along. No excuses, just believe that things could be alot different right now.

So, how will we beat them. By doing it better. Trust me, it will happen. We'll all get what we have coming to us for keeping our minds on what matters most. I would say, just don't let the appearances get you down. I get how it looks, but, again, it's guys like marko and Jim that keep things on a livable keel while things get sorted out...

#69
marko

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a} Piracy takes place almost exclusively for personal profit. yes of no ?

Almost exclusively, yes I would agree.

b} profits are generated by advertising servers around the 'net > yes or no ?

Yes, and by private advertising also I would presume

Baidu claims 1.5 billion users each and every day. China and most of Asia uses Baidu.
if piracy profits are generated by advertising then who or what systems are in place to present ads to downloaders?
c) there must be some metrics in place perhaps datamining by Baidu analytics to feed browsers advertisements.

Again, yes, but an automated bot can only detect or determine what the website allows it to - if the webmaster is clever enough, they can hide certain information from an ad bot (including Google Adsense) to give the impression it's a legitimate site. Again, as I've said before, it's very possible and very likely advertising programmes are aware of some illegal content but may choose to ignore it. Google are not innocent in all of this, they too have played the game, I've no doubt at all of that, but they can't begin to penalise sites in SERPs then continue to allow their ad programme to remain on those sites - it's a double barrel shotgun as far as Google are now concerned - any site which is demoted in SERPs for piracy will be removed from the adsense programme instantly, if they were even a part of it in the first place. It may be a hypocritical stance of Google, but isn't all fair in love and war?!.

As for Baidu, well any webmaster will tell you they have had their fair share of troubles from this search engine and most webmasters I've spoken to over the years have banned that search engine from their sites, including us, because they do not respect the request's of webmasters who place restrictive files like "robots.txt" in their root web folders which tell SE's not to crawl sites to the point they use too many resources. Baidu ignores these files and it's not the first time FBB has been literally brought to it's knee's by requests from this search engine, in some cases hundreds of requests at a time which kills resources and cripples websites. A visit from these guys border's on a denial of service attack for some sites!.

d) kill the ads and piracy collapses without profit motivation. yes or no ?

To an extent, yes, again I agree but don't forget if we remove one avenue for revenue, there is still the possibility of another one springing up - in fact I'd be surprised if this isn't already happening with some sites offering a subscription service for something like £1/$1 per month/year as the cost associated with the software will be far greater than the subscription. Would the "unsuspecting" member of the public have recourse with their credit card issuer if the site decided to wipe their accounts clean?. Would anyone have sympathy for them? ... Let's also not forget about the boot sales, flea markets and all other avenues to physically "sell" pirate materials.

Marko would call me conspiracy theorist, I call it what it is, officially sanctioned corruption.

Bala, of course there is corruption at the highest level, there always has been - does it take money from my pocket, well, apart from my taxes which help pay towards supporting society, no - does it keep me oppressed to the point I can't have my own say on political matters, no - does it stop me moving freely, no. My taxes may go towards some things I don't agree with, but so does everyone else's, and we may use our vote to voice our protests, however that's really just a formality too and doesn't really matter because no matter who get's in power, they all make as good a job of filling their own pockets as the next. Those in power also know there is only so much they can get away with before they are rumbled and their reign of fortune will come to an end - what goes around usually comes around for most. And for the record, I wouldn't consider you a conspiracy theorist Bala, you have strong views on what's right and wrong, and believe it or not, so do I, but maybe I'm just not quite as passionate on some subjects as you are, doesn't make us any more right or wrong than the other, we have differences of opinions in some things but I tend to think we both heading to the same destination, just on different roads perhaps.

forgive me, I was brought up in Western culture whose laws were inspired by the Judeo-Christian 10 commandments.
Commandment number 8 "You shall not steal." This commandant suggestion applies to bigwigs as well as little...
Perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned, we should re-write the Magna Carta and the US Constitution to indemnify bigshots.

Bigshots will always be indemnified Bala, that's just the way of it - a better question is what can we do about it, like piracy, one problem get's solved and another one raises it's head - no matter what the situation, we will generally always feel aggrieved about something in some way - unless we care to give ourselves ulcers or stress ourselves out to the point we are unable to live a happy life then I'd say we should move on to matters we can control - we can control where we go in life, how we manage our lives and how we manage our families lives, we can't put the world to rights because too many other people rely on greed as their motivation, we either accept it or become part of it - if it begins to consume us as individuals to the point it takes over our lives, I feel we have allowed the greed and corruption to get the better of us :good:
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#70
Claw

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That's why they make "fall guys" for marko, to take the heat for the boss man. Great post marko, you covered all the bases at one time. All involved in this debate have been really enlightening.





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